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Shannon Cassidy

The Return on Generosity

Executive coach, author, and podcast host Shannon Cassidy explains why giving to others is the best way to grow your professional and personal relationships.

In business, return on investment - or ROI - is a metric used to calculate profitability. When used colloquially, it's a way to gauge whether the time or effort you're putting into something is worth the results you're getting out of it.

Our guest in this show, Shannon Cassidy, is an accomplished businesswoman who's put an interesting spin on the idea of ROI. She practices and teaches ROG - Return On Generosity.

Shannon recognizes that when you give something - whether it be your time, your money, or lending your expertise - it gives back to you, and to others.

Throughout her career, Shannon has worked with hundreds of CEOs and high-level executives, helping them build generous practices in their everyday lives so they can be role models and leaders for their teams.

In her podcast (which is also named "Return on Generosity"), as well as her leadership development company, Bridge Between, she explains why generosity is generative and helps leaders learn why and how to instill generosity in their business culture.

In this episode, Shannon shares her thoughts on more effectively noticing and expressing your gratitude along with insights on the rewards she's found investing in people.

She also offers an assessment of leadership characteristics and how to identify which one most applies to you.

  • The subtle examples of generosity at work that are mostly overlooked (4:32)
  • How to ground yourself in gratitude (18:03)
  • The vital way contributions to others improves business performance (22:14)
  • The mantra that gives you power, both personally and professionally (37:16)

FRANK BLAKE: So I'd like to start with your podcast with what made you decide to start a podcast.

It's a great title, Return on Generosity, and I'd love to hear what was the journey to starting the podcast?

SHANNON CASSIDY: Yeah, thanks. I think I was just curious to know, how do people see generosity?

I was actually looking to validate my opinion that it's really relevant and it's a topic that's expansive and it has in fact proven that to be true.

And then I was considering writing another book and realized people just don't read anymore, or at least they don't read long form, but people like to multitask and do things while they're mowing the grass or cleaning the house or driving around.

So I thought if I could give them some thought leadership to consider.

It's very similar to your podcast in that the intent is to remind people that people are good and there are multiple ways for us to make a contribution and everybody's a leader.

And so I thought a podcast would be a fun thing to try, and then the pandemic happened and it was really the perfect medium to communicate with people.

FRANK BLAKE: So I'm curious, what do you think you've learned about generosity or learned generally from the show that surprised you or that you might not have learned otherwise?

SHANNON CASSIDY: Yeah. Well, it was validating, like I said, in a lot of ways.

But then I think the way in which people exhibit generosity is something that I was hoping to learn and I have learned, and it's very much around people's intent to be a contributor or to really try to support the wellbeing of others.

And I've learned that it's the small things that matter.

When I ask people for the examples of where they see generosity at work, you don't often hear that they started this new department or they made this massive impact.

It's very often these subtle, "Somebody gave me an opportunity," or, "Somebody gave me this critical feedback," or, "I was able to offer someone this opportunity and that has launched them into this whole new thing."

So it's very often these very small, subtle things that don't seem to be a big deal at the time, but then they really have that lasting impact on the people that I've had as guests.

FRANK BLAKE: It is always surprising how some things that are small from one perspective are large from another, makes such a difference.

It's worthwhile remembering.

And for people who are curious about a podcast title, Return on Generosity, are there a couple of the episodes that you'd recommend for folks to start with?


FRANK BLAKE: You have any favorites or just the best expression of the podcast?

SHANNON CASSIDY: Yeah, I have a lot.

In fact, and I'm not saying this just because it's you, but your episode is terrific and people who already listen to Crazy Good Turns know your style, but they may not have heard your thoughts on this topic specifically from your experience.

So your episode 98 and the title of your episode was, You Get What You Recognize and Celebrate, and I have used that term so many times since you shared it with me, Frank.

So I think that's a good one.

And then there's also episode 102 is Dr. Liane Davey, and she talks about the Cardinal Rules of Conflict, and she's one of those thought leaders that just gives you lots of tools and strategies and frameworks.

So even in that 30-minute episode, she packs it in.

And then episode 100 with Dolly Chugh is another one where she talks about nostalgia and looking back at our past and her new book, A More Just Future is what she's referring to.

But it's just really interesting thought leadership.

FRANK BLAKE: Oh, I love it. That's terrific.

And for our listeners, Shannon does an even better job, I think, than we try to do of keeping content pretty short and focused and punchy.

So those are particularly the latter two great recommendations.

Also for our listeners, maybe a bit of a description about you. And so what should people be knowing about you?

SHANNON CASSIDY: Well, thanks.

Well, professionally, I have an organization called Bridge Between, and there are three services that we offer executive coaching, facilitation, and there's a load of things that fit in there, like mentoring programs and team development offsite, and then keynote speaking.

And so those are the three services that we offer.

And we're very focused on large corporations, very often their international corporations, and trying to find those opportunities for people to find their potential.

Our tagline is Connecting Potential to Performance.

And I know that sounds cliche, but it's really exactly what we try to do is discover what is possible with this group of people or this individual or for this organization, and then what are the tools and strategies that we have that we can help enable that.

FRANK BLAKE: So this is a business basically you founded it, correct?

SHANNON CASSIDY: Yes. Yeah, in 2000.

FRANK BLAKE: So take us through a little bit, because I was part of a organization that was very much a founder, you could see the founders in this case, Bernie Marcus and Arthur Blank and Ken Langone, very much written into the organization's DNA.

Tell us a little bit about the founding story. What got you to found a business?

SHANNON CASSIDY: Yeah, so I was in corporate America prior to this.

We were living in Boston, Massachusetts. My husband got a promotion which was moving us to Philadelphia.

So it was more of a circumstantial type of a reason, but I thought I've always given 110% to wherever I'm working, and what if I was able to do some inventory of my own strengths and what are the things that I would love to do that I wouldn't consider work, and how could I make a bigger contribution?

Because I realized that at the companies that I worked for, I think I made a difference, but I don't know that I was really leveraging my strengths to the extent that I thought I could.

And so I never heard of coaching back then.

I mean, coaching to me was something that you experienced as an athlete, but I heard about executive coaching and leadership coaching, and it just really resonated as something that I felt like I did just naturally.

And then team facilitation and group facilitation is also something that I just like to do.

So I got a loan from my grandfather and he is a Polish immigrant, and I remember when I finally got to offer, try to pay him back 10 years later, or it was more like five years later, he refused it and he said, "You are living the American dream and I really want you to put that into your business, try to make a bigger difference."

And so that's really how it all started.

FRANK BLAKE: And was there anxiety associated with this or was it pretty "Oh, I already had my clients lined up before I started the firm."

SHANNON CASSIDY: Yeah. Oh, that's a great question because I started this in 2000 again, my husband got promoted and transferred.

So I was feeling kind of fortunate in that I felt like I had time to really build on my marketing and my logo and on all those fund kinds of things.

But then my husband got laid off shortly there.

It was like I would say six months after we moved and then 9/11 happened. And at that time I was pregnant with our first child.

So there was a lot of pressure to really take this up a notch.

And I think as hard as that was at the time, I think it really helped me to get very focused and clear about what is the difference I can make? Who could I serve? How can I do this? And what am I worth?

I think that was another thing that I really had to figure out is what my value is.

And I think I was underselling myself prior to that, and so it was real a catalyst.

And then I was able to lean back on those experiences when 2008 happened and then when 2020 happened.

So those real economic but societal plummets were informed by that setback in 2000.

FRANK BLAKE: And was there a moment when you were, "Wow, this is actually going to work. I've got enough of a head of steam here that this is going to work?"

Or when did that moment occur?

SHANNON CASSIDY: Well, I had a vision in part of my vision and business plan was that by five years in, so 2005 I would be a referral-based business.

And by 2003, I was a referral-based business.

And that to me is a sign of success is that people have such a positive experience that they want to introduce you to other people or other departments.

And so that was when I started to get the delight of, "Oh, this is how this could feel."

Because I just felt like going to networking events and doing networking in the traditional way was not really a strength of mine.

I just really value authenticity and not that people who do that well are not authentic.

I just think that the best way to refer me is to experience my work and the kind of impact that they have from the kind of coaching or team facilitation.

FRANK BLAKE: And it's interesting, I look, I've looked some on your website and what you do, and one of the things you talk about is helping people turn good intentions into action.

And first, is that correct? And then second, give our listeners some notion of how you would do that and how you facilitate people to accomplish that.

SHANNON CASSIDY: Yes, I absolutely do that. That's a major focus of mine.

I talk about behavioral modification and change is one of my areas of expertise.

And I think it's first starting off with self-compassion and understanding that people don't change in quantum leaps, people change in baby steps. All of us do. We are creatures of habit.

We've heard it said since Aristotle, that, "Excellence then is a habit, not a skill." I mean, we know that.

So if we pay attention to how do we change, then I think of it as five degrees.

I have a book called The 5 Degree Principle: How Small Changes Lead to Big Results.

And that 5 degrees is because 5% of our behavior is self-regulated, conscious behavior, 95% is that autopilot just running on our habits.

And so for people to think that they have willpower is really just a misunderstanding. We don't have a lot of willpower.

So for us to think about change in incremental steps, that's the way for us to get into action.

And I think that very often we have great intentions, we really do see what's possible.

We do have a vision, but then we get disappointed in the lack of progress that we see or the setbacks that we experience.

And I think it's just because we're trying to go too far too fast. And it would be best if we thought, "Well, what would be one thing I could do differently today that would make a change?"

FRANK BLAKE: It's actually fascinating how often we don't connect our intentions with actions.

I mean, we intend to do this, but we actually don't do it, and then we're surprised at where we end up.

SHANNON CASSIDY: And I think that's really disappointing and a very familiar feeling for all of us.

So to avoid that disappointment, we should be a little more thoughtful about what we're committing to right away or maybe take that big vision and back it up into what could we practice today?

FRANK BLAKE: And you're just focusing on that five degrees master, that five degree, and that makes huge changes.

SHANNON CASSIDY: Absolutely. And to pick a new habit a month even, because generally speaking, it takes 21 days to instill a new habit.

There's a great book by James Clear called The Atomic Habit.

If people are listening and really wanting to get their arms around this concept, I think he does a brilliant job explaining that.

But for us to just think, "Okay, what's one thing that I want to accomplish in this month and how could I measure that and what would that look like and what's the results? Who's going to hold me accountable?"

And just really be specific with that one thing till it gets lobbed into the 95, and then you can pick another thing.

FRANK BLAKE: So what kind of feedback do you get from the people who you work with? What's the typical response you get from people?

SHANNON CASSIDY: Yeah, well, I just did an engagement for Dress for Success: Worldwide this week on Generous Leader.

And the feedback I got right afterwards was, "This is so simple, but I'm not doing it."

So I think that sometimes it's just that I, intellectually I understand this, but it's similar to what you're saying, Frank.

It's that knowing/doing gap where it's like, I understand my intentions are clear, but what I'm doing and how I'm behaving isn't matching that.

So I think just sometimes we need a reminder and then we just have to think, "What's one thing that I'm going to commit to?"

FRANK BLAKE: How does it connect with generosity?

SHANNON CASSIDY: Yeah, I think that it connects very well because part of being generous is being intentional and mindful and really conscientious about the impact that you're making.

So for example, just even walking into the building of the office when you go to the office, are you holding the door open for others?

Are you greeting the security guard? Are you saying hello to the barista?

Are you aware of that you're a human being and you're being confronted by or in the company of other human beings?

So how are you showing up? That's generous. It seems so insignificant, but it really matters.

I just got off a call with somebody who's an executive assistant for somebody that I work with because we're planning an offsite, and she said to me, "You make me feel like I matter."

And I thought, "Well, of course you matter." And she said, "Yeah, but I don't know if I always feel like I do."

So I just think the generosity of those habits to even stop and say when I'm going to be in public or out with my team or in the organization, how do I want to show up?

What kind of impact do I want to make? How do I want to make people feel?

FRANK BLAKE: You have a great description.

I think it's a great description of gratitude saying that in life, it all expressed gratitude creates ripples.

And so two questions. How do you teach people to have a greater awareness of the impact of their gratitude?

And how do you teach them to more effectively express their gratitude?

SHANNON CASSIDY: That is so important.

And gratitude and generosity, I do believe are connected.

I wrote a journal or a, yeah, it's a journal. It's called Grounded in Gratitude.

And the image on the cover of that journal is a tree with roots.

And I think the roots of gratitude are us being grounded in our values and what we care about.

And we have perspective because we're grounded in the awareness of how fortunate we are or of the things that are going well in our lives. So that is a starting place to generosity.

I don't know that we can just straight out of the gates go and be a giver. I think we have to start with recognizing that we have a lot to begin with.

We have resources and we are abundant in thought and talent and time.

And then from that abundance, that's when I think we overflow into being generous.

And so for people to practice gratitude, this is one of my favorite topics. There's a couple of strategies that I think are really useful.

One is to just stop and notice, I call it Notice Three Good Things.

What are three good things that you could notice in your environment right now? Think three good things that are happening in your life right now.

Another one is called Savoring because there's this concept called hedonistic adaptation, which is that we kind of lose our appreciation for something over time.

So picture like a piece of cake, the first bite is amazing.

And then as you're eating the cake, and then let's just say there's loads of it, we just have this adaptation where it just becomes normalized.

So for us to savor and really enjoy something, be it something that you're eating or drinking or a conversation like this conversation right here just to savor it and think how special this is.

Another one is called Mental Subtraction.

And in one of Joni Mitchell's famous songs, she says, "You don't know what you've got till it's gone."

Well, that mental subtraction is to consider, "What if I didn't have this in my life? What if I didn't have this relationship? Or what if I didn't have this whatever," fill in the blank.

And so one practice that you could do is to actually not enjoy that thing for a period of time, say a week.

So let's just say you love coffee, you just love cups of coffee. So for that one week, you just don't have it.

And then when you get to reintroduce it into your life, you really enjoy it. So that mental subtraction or actual subtraction.

And then lastly would be journaling.

And like I said, I have that journal grounded in gratitude, but it could be any old notebook, anything just to jot down, I like to do it at the end of the day.

Some people like to start their day with their gratitude practice, but just to force yourself to think about, "What am I grateful for right now?"

And then again, back to that simplicity.

Sometimes when you go back and audit your journal, you realize that a lot of your captions are these subtle little things that were delightful and you captured it and then you could remember it.

FRANK BLAKE: So when you started your business, did you have this all in mind or has much of it arisen over time?

And there are things that haven't made the full trip and things that have added to your approach over time?

If you go back 20 years, how does this compare to where you started out in terms of your thought process and where you think you can help people and where they need help?

SHANNON CASSIDY: I so appreciate that question because I have not thought about that.

But in just off the top of my head, I would say I didn't realize that things like gratitude and generosity would be so valuable to others.

I just thought they were things that were valuable to me, and I thought they were my own secret superpowers.

And then the more I researched it, and that's the other delightful thing, is this actually has been scientifically proven to be good for us.

It's good for our minds and it's good for our bodies and our relationships and just everything about gratitude and generosity is good for us. So that was a wonderful thing to discover.

And I never thought that this would be an overt kind of brand of what I offer the world.

I thought this, again, was just more something for me personally and that I should focus on ROI, which is why I called the podcast ROG, because there was always so much emphasis on KPIs, key performance indicators and return on investment and bottom line benefits that it was really eye-opening to me to see that the more we're actually making a contribution to others, the better our bottom line and all the other metrics are.

FRANK BLAKE: And do you think people intuitively get that or the people who come to you intuitively get that?

Or is it something that you have to work a fair amount to get people to accept?

SHANNON CASSIDY: It does depend.

I mean, very often the people that are hiring me to come in intuitively get that, but very often the people that I will be serving do not inherently get that.

So I think sometimes you have to find out what do they value and what are their why's?

I always talk about you have to figure out what somebody's why is, what's their purpose?

And even for a group of people, say a team, to become a high performance team, like, "Well why? What's the benefit of that? What is the value in us investing this time and energy?"

And then once you understand what they value and how they're going to prioritize things, that's when I think you can meet them where they are.

But I think you first have to seek first to understand.

I mean, we've heard this for decades and Stephen Covey has it in one of his 7 Habits where, "We have to seek first to understand and then be understood."

So how can I connect what their mission is or what they want to accomplish with what I know is going to get them there, which is this alignment with others and collaboration.

FRANK BLAKE: You have a quiz on your website of identifying different characteristics of leaders.

You might just tell the audience what that quiz is about, what the categories are and how they might recognize it in themselves.

SHANNON CASSIDY: Oh, that's great.

So I do believe that generosity is a state of mind. I don't think that we are always one way or the other.

So I try to design this quiz so that people could understand what is their generosity state right now and what is that telling them?

So please feel free to take the quiz. It's free, and you could take it as often as you'd like.

And so in this quiz, there are three outcomes.

FRANK BLAKE: It like the SAT? Should we think we improve over time as we take the quiz more?

SHANNON CASSIDY: It would be interesting to see if you get, I would say the most generous outcome.

And then someday if you're feeling like you're just exhausted, if you get what we would describe as the least outwardly generous outcome.

But it's a signal that the person that you need to be most observant of or tender love and care toward is yourself.

So the least generous outwardly style would be the go, go, go, CEO.

And that style is a person who's running on empty, they're breathless, they're spread really thin, and that person really needs to allow themselves some attention and give themselves some care.

And very often we're looking to make crazy good turns for other people. And in this case, they would be wanting to focus on themselves and have some self-compassion.

And then the wholehearted observer is the next classification, I suppose, where it's similar to what you and I were saying that this person sees what needs to be done, but they aren't really doing anything.

They know that there's poverty, they know that there's health inequity and social injustice and political differences, and they get overwhelmed by all the need out there.

And so they're not doing anything.

So somebody like that, their best step would be to just take one action or to get clear about, "What's the thing that I care about the most or where I think I can make a difference," and then go do something.

And then the last one is called the Abundance Activator, and that's someone who is really grounded in gratitude and they have these resources and they're the ones that are overflowing.

For those people, the next step for them would be to come up with a generosity strategy like, "How do I want to make a difference? How could I channel my energy, time, and talent into something really specific?"

FRANK BLAKE: Do you find that there are folks who are generous or observant at a remove but not near in to themselves, so they're more likely to be generous to unknown folks in some troubled part of the world?

And to those around them, less generous?

Is that also a type within that you see and vice versa?


I see some people who are very global-minded where they're right mission trips and all of that, but they could be the person who unintentionally shuts the door in somebody else's face right behind them.

They may just not be as congruent in their day-to-day life.

I mean, because we're humans, we definitely don't always get it right.

So I think sometimes there is that incongruence where we're just so focused on something huge and we miss the opportunities for the day-to-day.

And then I also think that on the same vein, I don't think that people take as much stock in those day-to-day niceties and ways of being cordial, courteous and civil towards each other as generous acts.

I think people think, "Well, I'm just a good person."

And you think, "Well, that's not totally the norm, unfortunately."

FRANK BLAKE: And so it's also interesting looking at your program that you, this is something that you think is sort of a limited duration.

You have a point of view that people either go through and get it after that the idea is not to need training anymore.

How does that process work? It's you're not there.

You're not designing something where you're there whispering in someone's ear for a long time.


And I do see myself as, that's literally the name of the company is Bridge Between, because I think my role is to help them get to the place that they had envisioned or even a better place than the one that they had envisioned.

And then once they get there, I'm thrilled for them, but they're okay without me.

I really don't want to be somebody who is needed for too long, because then I think it has a different, it's not a healthy relationship.

I do see myself as a catalyst, somebody who's helping to encourage and launch people to that other side.

And when they get there, ways that you can measure that progress because it is a little bit frustrating that we don't have specific tangible metrics that we could analyze.

So sometimes it's just like, "I won't see. I won't feel like this anymore."

How do we measure that?

So sometimes the ways that I see that people have made it there or are at that place where they can be on their own is that they'll tell me the ways that they're almost like giddy and proud and excited to tell me about recent examples of times that they didn't get defensive or they didn't get triggered, or I didn't dominate that meeting, or I didn't get defensive, or I redirected the conversation back to what we were talking about.

And they're just really almost surprised and delighted about their own natural way of responding to things because their behavioral change is now in that 95% habit loop.

And it goes from being, they are unconsciously incompetent.

I got this model from Kim Scott, to consciously incompetent the work that we're doing is they become aware that they're not good at something and then eventually they become unconsciously competent where they're like, "I'm doing it."

And they're not really trying. And that's to me, the sign of success.

FRANK BLAKE: Who are your influences? Who are you reading now or did you read?

Who do you turn to for influence or inspiration?

SHANNON CASSIDY: Oh my gosh, there's so many people and things that I turn to for inspiration.

Kim Scott used to be an executive at, I believe it's Google, and then she went on her own and she wrote a book called Radical Candor, which is one that I like to use when I'm talking about conflict or feedback.

Another one, Liane Davey, who I had on my podcast.

She's another thought leader who I've learned a lot from.

Luvvie Ajayi Jones. She's a thought leader, TED Talk, she's written a couple of books.

Rohini Anand is somebody who I just got introduced to within the past six months, but she's a diversity, equity and inclusion leader, and she's written awesome book, just so much, so much influence.

And then I love Adam Grant. I listened to his WorkLife podcast.

I love your podcast.

I listen to Brene Brown.

So I tried to get a variety of influences and expose myself to different thought leaders who can help me see things from other angles, and particularly those who can help me think about things that just never occurred to me that can round out my point of view on things.

FRANK BLAKE: And now 20 plus years in running your business, what would you say are the biggest changes either from having to run a staff or changing the way you interact with your clients or confidence level or whatever it is?

What are the big arcs of change over the last 20 years for you?

SHANNON CASSIDY: I love that reflection question. I think just from a technology point of view, there's an app for everything now. So I didn't have apps, or at least I wasn't aware of them for scheduling. And social media for sure was not really a thing. I remember getting a Twitter account early on, so I literally have @shannoncassidy.

FRANK BLAKE: I'm curious, what are the changes for you on your Twitter and YouTube channels?

SHANNON CASSIDY: On social media?


SHANNON CASSIDY: Yeah. Well, I just, this is called naive and ignorance.

I just never realized it was going to be so polarizing.

I mean, it was called social media, so I thought it was going to be a chance for people to share pictures and thoughts and ideas.

And then of course, because it's human nature, because we can get so divisive and divided and righteous.

And I think that they call it the keyboard warrior where people are just more bold behind the privacy of their keyboard than they would be hopefully face-to-face. So that's unfortunate.

But I would think on the upside of it, I didn't realize that social media was going to be such an influential part of how people think and what helps them change their behavior.

So it's one of those, you just have to get on board with it and try to use it as responsibly as possible, which is another reason why I love having the podcast because it gives me something of value that I can offer people at least once a week that makes me happy.

And then of course, I always focus on Thankful Thursdays on gratitude.

I tried to share something around gratitude, but yeah, I never realized that it was going to be the power that it is.

FRANK BLAKE: And is it tougher running your organization now than it was 20 years ago or easier for you?

SHANNON CASSIDY: I think easier in that I know my value, I know where I can make a difference, and then I know where I am not the best person for the particular circumstance that's coming my way.

And I have a great cadre of resources and other professionals that I can refer people to.

So I like the people think of me first, but I'm not always the place for them to get their needs met.

So I think that that clarity of what I do and what I don't do and then who else I could refer people to has made life a lot easier.

FRANK BLAKE: Yeah, that's great. So I always ask this of our guests.

Who's done a Crazy Good Turn for you?

SHANNON CASSIDY: I was just thinking back to, "Who are these people in my life that I so value and how did I get to meet them?"

And that's a really fun exercise for us to think about.

So like my husband, I met through my sister and then this individual, Filemon Lopez was the first person once I started Bridge Between was the first person to give me an opportunity in the cable telecommunications industry.

So I very often think about somebody like Filemon who took a chance on me, he didn't know me from anyone and just-


SHANNON CASSIDY: ... decided to let me do some coaching work within Comcast.

And then that has snowballed into this really great relationship that we've had for 23 years.

FRANK BLAKE: Wow. Good. That's great.

And what do you think prompted that?

SHANNON CASSIDY: He said it was that I had an interesting introduction.

We went around the room, it was a National Speakers Association meeting, and I said that I'm in the construction business and that I build bridges.

And he thought that was hysterical and that was actually the reason why he had a follow-up conversation with me.

FRANK BLAKE: That's terrific. That's just a great example. That's terrific.

So for the listeners who just enjoyed hearing from you, what are the best ways to get in touch with you, to learn more about you?

SHANNON CASSIDY: Ah, thank you. So my website,, it has everything from the podcast, the quizzes and information about the services.

And another way to get there is that gets you to the Bridge Between site as well.

Thanks for asking.

FRANK BLAKE: Yeah, and your books, you might want to reference a couple of your books.

SHANNON CASSIDY: Sure, yeah, those are on the website as well.

So V.I.B.E. is one that still gets used very often for team events.

Some people buy them for graduation gifts, so it's an acronym, Values, Interest, Beliefs and Energy Sources.

So V.I.B.E., then The 5 Degree Principle that we spoke about and Grounded In Gratitude.

FRANK BLAKE: Very cool. You working on another book?

SHANNON CASSIDY: I don't know. I mean I have a draft of a book. It's G.I.V.E.

And it's an acronym for G.I.V.E. And so I might do that, Frank.

I think it would be fun to have a workbook like V.I.B.E. that people could use with teams to talk about the value of generosity.

Very often our team programs include some kind of a philanthropic component, so we could build prosthetic hands or we could make bikes.

And that is always the highlight of everybody's experience is what we're doing for someone else, which is exactly why "we grow when we give" is a echoed mantra on R.O.G. because people do tend to find joy from making a contribution to others.

So I think writing a book that would be something that could live on and that people could facilitate without me being there would be a really interesting thing to create.

FRANK BLAKE: So for the last question, because I do love the phrase that, as you say, is a bit of a mantra, the, "Grow as we give."

Give our listeners a little bit of the background on that and how they should think about that.

SHANNON CASSIDY: And on R.O.G., we open and close with, "We grow when we give," and I had a bunch of friends and colleagues record their voices saying those words.

And I think it's similar to what we were saying about gratitude is where we start.

It's the growing in gratitude, but from that place of recognizing that we have more than enough and that we have that mindset of like, "Wow, I have all of these resources."

I think that we want to find ways to channel that abundance and then we make a contribution in any size form. And I think that's how we grow.

I think that's how all of us get to experience the joy of life and get to see the impact that we can make on others.

I don't even know that we realize how significant we are until we make a difference in somebody else's life and then we think, "Oh my gosh, I have this power," and it's a really beautiful thing.

So I think for people who are out there trying to pursue happiness, I just think that the get in there card, the ticket to win is generosity.

FRANK BLAKE: That is awesome.

And a perfect punctuation point, exclamation point at the end of this, Shannon.

Thank you so much for being a guest and I urge everyone to listen to your podcast and visit your site and keep in touch with you. Thank you very much.

SHANNON CASSIDY: Thank you, Frank.

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