Justin Miller

• What significance the name "Untold" holds (4:12)
• Justin's first trip to Africa, and what so moved him (8:28)
• His struggles with not knowing if this work was his calling, or the best use of his abilities (19:30)
• Inspiring stories about the difference Untold has made for those living with, and fighting against, HIV and AIDS (21:33)

FRANK BLAKE: Justin, welcome. It's a real privilege to have you on the show.

I'm going to start with just the unusual name of your organization: Untold.

And maybe explain for our listeners at the start, why did you choose to call your organization Untold?

JUSTIN MILLER: Well, first of all, Frank, thank you for having me on the show.

It's an honor to be here.

That is a great question and one that I love because this word has so much meaning to us.

And for those of you who aren't familiar with our work, we actually weren't called Untold from the very beginning.

We were actually called CARE for AIDS.

FRANK BLAKE: I did not know that. Okay.

JUSTIN MILLER: Yeah.

For 14 years, that was our original name and pretty straightforward, pretty clear what we do, but it had its limitations.

And the story that we want to tell and we want to be about as an organization is not ...

We want to invite everybody to be a part of this story that we're a part of.

And one of the things about Untold and really the universal experience that our clients face on a daily basis is not that they're living with this HIV disease, it's that they are experiencing these overwhelming feelings of shame and they lack a sense of belonging.

And that's what we can all relate to.

We've all been in those seasons of our lives where we feel alone, we feel misunderstood, we feel stigmatized, and we all have those untold stories.

And until we can get some freedom from those stories that tend to hold us back and tell us lies that aren't true about ourselves, it's hard for us to live fully into the untold stories of our future.

And so we believe that Untold gets to sit at this really cool inflection point where we get to invite our clients into our program to say, "Hey, we want to help you begin your journey of healing and a lot of that is going to be letting go of some of those stories that you've been keeping to yourself and getting free of those. And then let's figure out how we can journey together into the untold stories of your future."

So there's actually many other layers of-

FRANK BLAKE: A lot of layers. Yeah.

JUSTIN MILLER: But I give that same invitation to those listening to this podcast today to say, hey, what are the lies that you are believing about yourself that you need to identify and wrestle with so that you can live fully into the untold stories of your future?

FRANK BLAKE: Well, it's interesting because I learned in researching about your organization, the comment that the stigma is often more deadly than the disease itself.

Maybe also give a history because I didn't realize the change in your name.

Your organization's been around for a while.

Explain to our audience the history of your organization.

JUSTIN MILLER: Yeah.

We are entering our 17th year of ministry, which is just a crazy statement to even voice because it seems like in some ways it's been just a few years.

In other ways, it feels like a lifetime.

The story is really intertwined in my own personal story.

I was part of the amazing founding team that brought this organization to life.

We had a lot of people that were part of that, but primarily it was myself and two Kenyan pastors who formed this initial founding team.

And we can talk more about everything that even predated the launch of the organization, but the three of us, we were moved by this common belief that there was so many barriers that were keeping people with HIV from being able to experience a flourishing life and stigma was one of those big barriers.

Material poverty, violence in the communities where they live, co-occurring infections and opportunistic infections that were prevalent because of lack of medical care.

All of these things, among others, created this crushing weight that it was really hard for someone with HIV to escape from underneath that.

And we were just seeing the breakdown of the family because moms and dads were not able to live well with HIV, and as a result, they would die prematurely or they would pass along the virus to their children.

Any number of situations that might occur.

And then we would see these generational cycles continue and children who were orphaned as a result of that.

And so that burdened us.

And there is a backstory about how I even got to Kenya in the first place.

FRANK BLAKE: No. Let's detour and get to-

JUSTIN MILLER: Let's detour.

FRANK BLAKE: Because I did start, as you did the history, with well, what got you to Kenya with two pastors?

So what got you to Kenya with two pastors?

JUSTIN MILLER: That's a great story, but I would say ...

I won't give the full version of it, but the catalyst for this trip started when I actually heard Bono from U2 in 2006 talking about this global pandemic called HIV.

I was 18 years old. I was just a rising sophomore in college.

I was attending a conference that was primarily made up of church leaders.

And the plea from Bono was, "Hey, the church can't be on the sidelines. The church needs to be the one leading the way in responding to this crisis.

"And the church has the unique ability not only to influence communities, shape communities, but also deliver a spiritual hope that I think is really important."

And at that moment, I didn't really know anything about HIV, but he painted this pretty discouraging picture of how much stigma existed within the Christian community towards those living with HIV and something just struck a chord with me that that wasn't okay.

And I've learned as I've gotten older and into this work more, that God actually used a lot of my experience with seeing a lot of disability in my story and seeing how disability can also be a very isolating situation and it can be hard to find community and care, and there can be a lot of stigma and shame around that as well.

And so that was part of this justice mentality of, hey, something's not right with this.

I need to do something about this.

That was one of the things that pushed me over the edge to say, I want to go to Kenya.

At first it wasn't even Kenya, it was just Africa.

I want to understand the situation that exists there and I want to understand my role.

And at the time, it was very granular.

I want to understand what could my church, this 1500 person church in the greater Atlanta area, what could we do to have a meaningful impact on the lives of those living with HIV?

And then from there, it turned into a project to produce a documentary so we could come back and share.

FRANK BLAKE: So you go over as a sophomore for the summer or something?

JUSTIN MILLER: Yeah. Between my sophomore and junior year of college.

We go over for about a month. I have a couple good buddies of mine from high school that joined the team.

They signed up for some reason to go on this crazy adventure.

It was actually another one of my high school friends that was at that conference with me with Bono.

He was sitting in the chair next to me when we heard that challenge and he too was inspired to do something about it.

So we built a team, we raised some money, we found a guy that knew how to work a video camera to some extent, and we set off on this adventure.

And in a series of connections that really can only be described as divine appointments, we ended up meeting a missionary to Kenya who had two young Kenyan pastors on her staff who had a really deep call to serve this community living with HIV.

And she said, "Hey, I can tell you that if you're going to come and shoot this documentary, you're going to need a lot of local support."

And so she generously offered us these two young men to be our hosts, our guides, while we were there in country and we ended up forming a bond, a brotherhood, and ultimately becoming founders of this organization together and we're still in it together here 17 years later.

FRANK BLAKE: So you go there to film a documentary.

That sounds like a pretty discrete piece of work that's not going to redirect your life.

It might, but it's a documentary.

JUSTIN MILLER: No. You're exactly right. The…you know…that felt like ... And don't get me wrong, that's a big step, but I felt like that was my ...

Like you said, discreet's a good word.

This is my very defined contribution to this issue and effort. I'm on this trajectory. I'm not looking to reorient my life to be an advocate for those living with HIV.

And God had a totally different plan in mind.

FRANK BLAKE: And so what happened?

JUSTIN MILLER: Yeah. Countless stories we heard from individuals from all walks of life.

In a place like East Africa, they say that if you're not infected with HIV, you're affected by it.

FRANK BLAKE: The numbers are stunning, right?

JUSTIN MILLER: The numbers are staggering and the impact is felt broadly throughout the community. And so we heard-

FRANK BLAKE: Justin just take a minute and share some of the numbers because again, I didn't realize it until researching your organization.

JUSTIN MILLER: Yeah.

For example, in the three countries we work in East Africa alone, there's about five million people living with HIV.

Globally there's upwards of a new 1.5 million people becoming infected every single year and still about half that number, about 700, 750,000 people passing away from AIDS-related sicknesses every year.

And so 17 years ago, those numbers were even higher.

We've made some significant progress in this area, but the need is still really great.

And even as people have gotten more access to testing, more access to treatment, some of the social barriers to helping people to thrive still remain.

FRANK BLAKE: So you go over, you do your documentary, and then is there a pause before you decide, yes, I'm going to commit myself to this or just, yeah, I do the documentary and I know there's nothing, that's what I need to do?

JUSTIN MILLER: Well, we didn't even really get out of Kenya before we knew something was happening that we had been entrusted with a sacred experience and a sacred story that needed not only to be told in a documentary form, but that there probably needed to be some kind of response.

And as good as documentaries are, there's a time and a place for awareness, but in this season, it felt like there needed to be some real intentional action taken on behalf of people who were struggling with this disease.

And so we didn't even get out of the country before we started to have these conversations sitting in our little hotel rooms at night to be like, "What are we supposed to do with this?"

And we started to hear from my co-founders, Cornel and Duncan, about their lived experience for 20 years growing up in and around communities.

FRANK BLAKE: These are the Kenyan pastors.

JUSTIN MILLER: These are the Kenyan pastors.

So they just recently graduated from seminary.

They had done multiple stints in doing church planting and outreach, and they continued to run up against people who weren't receptive to any message of faith because their physical suffering was so great.

And that was just this common thread that they continued to see.

And so they felt burdened and they began to share their vision for what would it look like to start a program that would be run through the local church, that would focus on strengthening families, that would care for the whole person.

Some of the elements that are really strong in our program today.

And I basically said, "It feels like you already have a vision for this. What would it take to help equip you guys to be able to chase after the vision that you have?"

And they said, "$200 a month."

And I thought, okay. I may be a poor college student, but obviously I have so much.

I have so much compared to some of the places that we've been, the people we've met from a material perspective.

And so I said, "Okay. We can do that. We can commit to help you guys start well with $200 a month."

And then they said, "One of our first things would be to move ... We have this house that we'd love to rent.

"It would be a place that would be a ministry center for us. We'd be able to office out of there."

And that was where we were going to spend the first $200 a month was to rent this location.

And then that was enough for them to gather the first group of women living with HIV who started coming to this house on a weekly basis for counseling services, training, and discipleship and all this stuff.

And in a very simple way, it was our first little pilot program.

And at that point, Cornel and Duncan, my co-founders, were ready to go all in and they wanted to commit themselves full time to this work.

So then we needed to raise money for their salaries.

We came back and there wasn't really a pause.

We started working that summer on completing at least a draft of the documentary.

We ended up producing a short seven-minute film that we thought was going to be a trailer, but then we ended up pouring our full energy and attention into actually launching this organization.

So that's all that ended up coming out of the video.

But by the end of that summer, Cornel and Duncan were beginning to experiment with the program in Kenya, and we were beginning to ask partners to join us in this work.

And really the first real formal expression of our program launched in January of 2008, which most listeners won't remember this, but that was the time that Kenya was experiencing the most violent conflict post-election from December of 2007.

And my two co-founders are from the opposing tribes who were killing one another.

It's very poetic and redemptive, I believe that we saw two guys, culture is at war, tribes are at war with one another and in the midst of that turmoil, they were partnering together to start a ministry to reach those living with HIV.

So it's a cool part of our founding story.

FRANK BLAKE: When you get back ... So you're still in college now right?

JUSTIN MILLER: Yes.

FRANK BLAKE: You're still in college and you go, I need to help and support these guys.

I need to set up an organization.

Are you thinking this is a life commitment, this is another couple of years? At what point are you saying, yeah, this is what I'm going to do?

JUSTIN MILLER: That's a good question.

So think that I bargained with God a lot in that season.

I felt like it was one thing to do it during college, and then that was the first big crossroads.

So 18 months go by, we've had far more success than we could have ever imagined at that point.

We've already launched three programs in Kenya. We've probably raised a quarter of a million dollars for the work.

And I'm at a crossroads and okay, this is where my commitment is being put to the test.

Am I going to pursue what my own aspirations were in business?

Am I going to stick it out and continue to work with Cornel and Duncan?

I think I got wise counsel to take a few meetings and I had a few interviews and I was trying to sense, is there something else out there that I'm supposed to pursue?

But I felt confirmation in that that I should at least for a season, commit myself to the work of CARE for AIDS at the time.

And so that year, September 2009, is when I started as the full-time executive director of the organization.

And even then it was like, this could be a cool thing to do for a couple of years. Let's see where this goes.

But this isn't a lifetime commitment or calling.

And when I finally did a few years into that story get complete and total peace, that this work was just a perfect alignment between my skills and abilities and passions for not just those that we're serving, but even just for building organizations that are having a redemptive impact in the world.

And that all of these things were actually the perfect intersection of how I've been equipped.

I felt a total peace that this is where I've supposed to be.

And God still hasn't told me that this is going to be forever, but I was able to-

FRANK BLAKE: It's 17 years and counting.

JUSTIN MILLER: 17 years, and I've said, okay, I can now put to rest this discontent that I have with is this supposed to be the work that I'm supposed to do?

And God has really crystallized for me, this is part of my holy discontent.

This idea that there's part of me that really believes ...

And it's not just those living with HIV, but those who have been marginalized from community, whether it's because of disease, because of disability, because of other things, that I feel like that spending my life on behalf of those individuals is something that I feel really, really passionate about.

FRANK BLAKE: Are there individuals who've been helped by your program that stand out?

And when you think about what you're doing, they personify beyond the numbers, beyond the number of people you've helped, this is why I am doing this?

JUSTIN MILLER: Man, there's so many faces.

We got to share this story. There's two quick examples.

One I want to camp out on for a second, but the first one, we did a story at our 10-year anniversary of a client who was in our program, the first class that we did in 2008.

And when I met Sarah in our first class, I had to help her sit up in her bed because she was so weak. She had not been out of bed in weeks.

And at the 10-year anniversary ... She'd been in our program for just nine months and then nine years had passed and she was just this vibrant, beautiful woman that had ...

A sign of health is being larger in Kenya.

She'd put on so much weight, and she just was so proud of what her life had become over the past decade.

We don't always get to see our clients and where they are 10 years after.

We've had 40,000 graduates and so I don't always get to see them at the beginning and then a decade later.

But her story did personify a lot of the impact.

But even another gentleman named Michael Mora, I got to know him. We told his story.

He was an entrepreneur through and through, but he had three kids and he wanted to be a dad.

He wanted to be there for his kids. He wanted to set an example in faith, but he had really had come out of place of just, he saw no hope for his future.

And he came into the program and there was a radical transformation physically, spiritually, emotionally.

And we continue to follow along his story now coming up on 15 years, and he has become a pastor himself.

He has continued to thrive in business.

We were part of helping him start a fish farm in a part of Kenya there wasn't any fish, but he ended up employing other clients to help make some of the products that they were trained in the program.

He's a great picture to me, and he really believes that Untold is the reason why he was one, alive, but that he was able to fulfill his destiny because of his experience in the program.

FRANK BLAKE: One of the things that struck me was, AIDS is now treated so differently in the U.S. and if it's fair to say, receded a bit from its prominence in our national psyche.

And I read some of the stories of the folks in your program.

There was one about a woman who was describing being sick and wanting to move to a city.

And the reason for wanting to move to a city is not the companionship of others or less stigma in the city.

It's so that somebody would find her body when she died.

And I realized that we have no idea of the impact of the stigma.

How common - I guess, what is it like? Is it getting better?

JUSTIN MILLER: In some regards, yes.

I would say we think about stigma in a couple different layers, and I'll try to be very brief here.

But there are places like Uganda where we work where stigma is really become institutionalized because of legislation and laws that have been passed around on certain issues that have increased the amount of stigma around people living with HIV.

That's a really hard thing to combat when you're talking about legislation on the national level.

FRANK BLAKE: And what does the legislation say?

JUSTIN MILLER: Well, legislation is it criminalizes behavior that is often associated with HIV.

And so it paints a target on the back of people with HIV.

And so that stigma, we have to keep-

FRANK BLAKE: Not only sick, but you're a criminal.

JUSTIN MILLER: Right. Right.

And oh, if you are going to collect medication, then we might just presume that you are also engaging in this lifestyle and so we're going to arrest you.

So that's an issue that we have to continue to combat.

Not something that we are particularly focused on right now.

But even in the communities where we work, there is the external stigma of an employer who doesn't want to employ somebody because they know their HIV status.

There is the potential that somebody wouldn't want to do business with you or let their kids play with your kids because of a known HIV status.

And some of that may be getting better, but it is still a prominent part.

And then there's a lot of stigma that is internalized, which is true of a lot of things.

Our clients believe a lot of things about themselves that may or may not be reflected in the community, but they believe to be true, and so they behave differently and act differently because they have a certain stigma about themselves.

All of those are still prevalent and the amount of mental health challenges that we are facing in east and Southern Africa as a result ...

We know how pronounced it is in our own context here.

But the HIV population when it comes to experiencing depression or suicidal ideation, it's almost three times the general population because of those different stigma factors that they face.

FRANK BLAKE: So you mentioned the point about disability, which I think is a great point a bit earlier.

Is there something that if I had been talking to people who knew you at the age of 15 and I said, "This is what Justin's doing now," they all would've said, "Yep. That's totally understandable. Here's his life experience. This is a logical place for him to end up."?

Or would they say, "Oh, that's a surprise."?

JUSTIN MILLER: I'd like to think that it wouldn't be a surprise because…you know…I think…

I hope they would've seen a young person that, one, grew up with a brother who has cerebral palsy.

And David, my brother, has impacted my story so greatly.

And I hope they would've seen somebody that had hopefully a sharp mind, but also a really soft heart.

Maybe some people maybe could have imagined me in a more social sector type work.

But at least what I was telling everybody was that I wanted a career in corporate America.

That's what I had told myself.

I was raised under a dad who was very successful in the marketplace and he still is one of my heroes.

And so I think people could have seen me probably in either path, but I could not see that in myself.

I could not see myself going into a nonprofit organization until much later.

FRANK BLAKE: I was asking Justin, part of what makes his story is the human element that it was difficult to decide.

He might have been telling his sophomore self throw himself all in, but the human part of it that's difficult because not the common path.

JUSTIN MILLER: And there's no denying that it has been difficult.

And there are days that it feels like, man, if I could have just had a job that I could clock out at 5:00 that would be an easier path.

But I am reminded often that a life that is spent on behalf of other people and whatever sector that is in, but a life that is others-focused, that's generative, that is trying to help to solve problem that's not just focused on yourself, that's a life that brings a lot of joy and a lot of peace.

You talk about people who have done crazy good turns for me, I think my co-founders did one of the greatest things they could have done for me by inviting me into the story of Untold.

And someone might look at it and say, "Well, aren't you helping them by supporting them and raising funds for them?" Yeah.

But it is a mutual benefit because being proximate to them and to the work that we're doing in Africa has had a profound impact on my life.

So all that to say, yes, it's hard, but yes, I would do it again and I would encourage other people to say, hey, that investment, that choice to go all in on behalf of other people is one that you won't regret.

FRANK BLAKE: Hard to improve on that.

There's a great quote in your last annual report, and I love your annual reports, but the quote is ...

And it's not from you, it's from one of your managing directors who talks about what you're doing as "long obedience in the same direction."

And I'm wondering, are there flashes of inspiration, individual stories, people who've made an impact on you that help in that path of long obedience?

JUSTIN MILLER: Yeah. That's a phrase that I hold closely too.

And I love it and I share it with my team all the time because I really just believe that.

And there's a quote that's related to that that says that you almost always overestimate what you can do in a year and underestimate what you can do in 10 years. I love that quote.

I do think that so much of what we've done over this time, it's really just about pushing that flywheel.

You're pushing it slowly and slowly, and if you apply force in the same direction over 17 years, you do start to build this momentum.

And so as I look to people ... Some of the leaders that I've looked up to … My dad being one of them.

Even though I took a different path than he did, he served in the same organization for 45 years and I saw he him have exponential impact because of that longevity, that consistency.

I look at leaders in the nonprofit sector like Peter Greer and Gary Haugen and guys that are leading great organizations in alleviating human trafficking and microfinance.

And some of those leaders have been friends and mentors to me, but they really are just exemplars to me of individuals who have said, "I'm going to take where God has given me. I'm going to be content in this space.

"I'm going to apply myself in one organization in one direction and I believe that we can have an outsized impact because of that."

FRANK BLAKE: So if you were giving advice to your sophomore self from the position that you have now, what would your advice be?

JUSTIN MILLER: Well, I'll give one piece of advice I would give that's not related to Untold, I would say marry Lindsay.

FRANK BLAKE: Okay.

JUSTIN MILLER: That's my wife now. I'm so glad I did that. We've been married for 15 years.

But I would say save yourself the time and go all in on Untold.

I would say there's no question that this is what you were made to do and you should commit to it fully.

I think I would have saved myself and the organization some time of just discovery and questioning during those early days. Yeah. I think I would say go all in.

FRANK BLAKE: So I always ask our guests who has done a crazy good turn for you in your life?

You're doing a crazy good turn for thousands and thousands and thousands of people.

Who's done a crazy good turn for you?

JUSTIN MILLER: Well, you don't get to this point in really any venture, but particularly a work like this without having a lot of people who have done crazy good turns for you.

And man, so many people flashed in my mind, who have been partners, who have been teammates of mine, people who have stood by us during the hard seasons.

The person that comes to top of mind is probably the person outside of my own family - I've had a very supportive family - but the individual who has served on my board the longest has served as my chair the longest, has probably led more trips to East Africa than anybody else I know and who has just committed his full self to the work and probably chief among all of that has been the person that has given me probably the most mentorship.

I'm proud to call him a friend. It's a guy named Cliff Robinson.

And he lives here in Atlanta. And you may know him.

FRANK BLAKE: Yes. I do.

JUSTIN MILLER: But he just joined in the story early and he went all in.

I have a hard time imagining where this endeavor would be today without his influence.

FRANK BLAKE: Yeah. Phenomenal, phenomenal person.

And just a couple of final questions, just my own curiosity.

JUSTIN MILLER: Yeah.

FRANK BLAKE: How many times do you go over to Africa as part of your regular work, and what was COVID like for Untold?

JUSTIN MILLER: So I go over about three times a year, and you do the math about 17 years. So I'm right at about 50 trips.

I have such a special love for East Africa and now South Africa.

I don't know we've talked about that but South Africa is the next frontier for Untold.

We've just opened up an office in Johannesburg and would love to use that as a hub to be able to serve the countries around Southern Africa in the years to come.

When it comes to COVID-

FRANK BLAKE: I'm imagining not easy to get over there, much harder to maintain lines of communication and all the rest, much harder to do what you do over here in helping them.

JUSTIN MILLER: Yeah.

So I will say our organization, like many others, saw a radical amount of generosity in the years following COVID.

Obviously some people were in sectors and industries that were really badly affected by COVID. Others were spared from some of that.

And we just saw an amazing generosity of our donors who said, "Hey, we know that you guys are going to have a hard time.

"We know that you're probably going to need to provide additional support and care to your clients."

So people just leaned in and we love that.

The East African side, they felt the brunt of it. Obviously social distancing ...

We started talking to people and say, "Hey, we believe in physical distancing, but we don't people to be socially distanced because our clients they were so vulnerable and they were already feeling isolated."

So to be isolated even more was such a hard thing. So we had to switch very quickly.

Our staff there did an amazing job of switching over to a telehealth type system, which you don't have the capabilities of Zoom or things like that, but you just were using cell phones.

So calling in for tele-counseling sessions, telemedicine evaluations.

And we did that for about five months, where besides coming to the church once a month to pick up a package of food, we really didn't get to have a lot of face-to-face contact with our clients.

But we learned a lot during that time.

And really based on all the records we have, we lost one client in the year following COVID to COVID.

And so it really was miraculous that so many people were able to have good health through that season.

FRANK BLAKE: How many clients do you have annually? What's the annual number of clients?

JUSTIN MILLER: So every center is operating on their own annualized calendar, but at any given time, we've got about 8,000 clients in the program.

We have 104 centers today in communities.

And so each of those centers has about 80 clients in a cohort, and they're coming multiple times a week to our center to receive the services.

FRANK BLAKE: And if you said, what is this going to look like three to five years from now, what will it look like three to five years from now?

JUSTIN MILLER: Well, that's a question that we are trying to answer in a really focused way right now.

I have my ideas.

And I would say that our heart is to say, where are the most vulnerable people that are suffering from this disease and where can we go and meet them there?

We have primarily focused in urban centers, which there's a high concentration of HIV, high poverty rates, there's a lot of reason to be there. But we're looking a lot more intentionally about where do we need to go to meet the people that desperately need our services?

So for example, right now, 15 to 24 year olds, that age group is contracting HIV faster than any other group.

And we may be doing a lot more targeted programming towards the youth population.

We might be looking at what does our program look like in areas that are more rural as opposed to just urban?

And so I think there's a number of possibilities.

We still feel that South Africa and the surrounding countries is an area of great focus.

But if we can continue to figure out where's the areas of greatest need and where are we best equipped to be able to help meet that need, that's what we're trying to answer right now.

And we're asking a lot of people that are closer to it than I am, what they think should be part of our strategy the next few years.

So we'll report back once we have it figured out.

FRANK BLAKE: All right. Very good.

So where should people go to find out about Untold?

JUSTIN MILLER: Untold.org is the best place to go.

From there you can find how to get to all of our social channels and can sign up for emails.

If you're interested, we'd love to talk to you more about what does it look like to partner, what does it look like to go over to support our staff in East Africa, South Africa.

FRANK BLAKE: Just on that, how many volunteers do you have a year who go to East Africa or South Africa?

JUSTIN MILLER: It's not been steady since COVID but there was probably a season where we had upwards of 200 people in one year come over to that part of the world with us.

So we are very familiar with hosting folks over there.

It is really encouraging for our staffing clients to be able to receive partners here from the U.S., but it's also transformational for people who go to get to be up close and personal to the people that we serve.

FRANK BLAKE: But that's right. Just an amazing, amazing story.

Amazing what you're doing.

For those listeners who aren't familiar, I will tell you I was shocked by the numbers.

The number of people, as you were talking about earlier, who are both affected by the disease in Africa and die every year by the disease in Africa.

And that doesn't even begin to touch, as you say, the stigma and the social issues that come with it.

And so you're doing an amazing thing. So thank you very much.

JUSTIN MILLER: Thank you, Frank.

FRANK BLAKE: Yep. Privilege to have you on.

JUSTIN MILLER: I appreciate it.